maybe modesty policing isn't all up to women after all

[merchimerch]

I found this article really interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7260314.stm

Just yesterday I was hemming and hawing/commenting in densaer's LJ that women are almost always the ones on whom the onus falls to keep men's sexuality at bay.

The universe decided to dish up some humility for me this morning with my porridge, since as I was reading the headlines, I came across the above article. 57 men are being investigated in Saudi Arabia for wearing indecent clothing, leering at women, and flirting, in the shopping areas around Mecca.

Now don't get me wrong, I think it is too bad that the laws and cultural mores in some places keep men and women from interacting in playful ways. However, if cultural norms state that men and women are supposed to be modest and not act in an untoward manner with one another, then it is refreshing to see/hear about these norms being enforced on men, not just women, for a change.

Comments

[densaer.livejournal.com]

You know, it's funny.

I just saw the same article about half an hour ago and had roughly similar thoughts: an example of equity of some sort.

But if you look a little deeper, I think it's still heavily anti-woman. I bet that the punishments for the 57 accused are not anywhere near as serious as perhaps those for women in a similar position.

FWIW, even my Arab friends in the Gulf region have told me they look at the Saudis as nutty when it comes to their gender issues. If you look at Bahrain, the UAE and such, they're much more moderate on such things. Yes, there's the covering up of women - even in the mall of Dubai, but at least the women are allowed to go skiing in Ski Dubai. They have head-to-toe-covering ski wear, of course, but it's still possible.

[merchimerch.livejournal.com]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not tauting Saudi as a new feminist haven. The burden of modesty and sexual morality is still very much on women. It's just interesting to see an example of some equity. I'm guessing that the men get a slap on the wrist as well.

My take on it is that the story wouldn't be news if it weren't a surprising exception.

[sps.livejournal.com]

And once again I'm culturally boggled. My perception of the West is that men are tightly controlled in how they behave (you can easily lose your job for pinging someone to see if they might be interested, as a male, and only as a male, you will get locked up if you take your clothes off in public, and the range of socially acceptable fashions is extremely constrained), while women are free to choose from both male and female stereotypes, can exploit sexual leverage in private, at school and at work without fear of sanction, and, in sum, can by and large do as they please, constrained only by the (actually rather small) chance of encountering a psychopath.

Now, this is certainly not to say that there are not many social games that are stacked against women. But the onus falling on women to keep men at bay? I can't make head or tail of that. The full weight of society is arrayed with you on this one. Everyone, men included, agrees that men are animals (which, by and large, we aren't). And women are, you will notice, just as likely to complain that a man doesn't make advances as that he does (though rather less likely to report him to authority for the former, of course).

Sorry if I sound grumpy, but it's a really huge issue from this side of the fence!

[merchimerch.livejournal.com]

I was mostly referring to Middle Eastern/Central Asian cultures where women have the burden of being modest because it is assumed that men should not be tempted by seeing scantily clad women.

And no worries about the grumpy. I agree that gender relations as regards to mating games are complex and rather broken at the moment in the West. As a women, I feel that I get rebuffed if I make the first move, since it seems that I am too pushy or dominant. However, I know many men who are tired of having the onus of making advances solely on them (as they perceive it). Not a great situation, no matter how you slice it. But hopefully culture is changing around this as well.